Q & A. Lichen Sclerosus, P-Shot® & O-Shot® easy & hard cases


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Charles Runels: I’m doing this broadcast from Las Vegas today. There’s an [A4M 00:00:12] meeting and I was trying to make sure I’m up to date on a few things. I bumped into one of the authors of this textbook.

I’ll try to let you guys know what I’m doing to try to keep up with our area of interest. I found … One of the authors who’s a Pharm D [Angela Pressman, PhD], wrote a chapter of this book and she alerted me to it. I haven’t read it yet, but I bought it and I’ll let you know, but it looks like it could be relevant to what we do.

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Let’s see what else is going on. I want to let you guys that we’ve put out some … We’ve put out a press release about some of Dr. Posey’s research about the O-Shot® (Orgasm Shot®) procedure and treating lichen sclerosus …so you may get some questions [from your patients] about that. I thought you might want to know more about what you should treat and what you shouldn’t treat if you’re doing lichens sclerosus. She’s actually on the call so I think I may undo her mic so she can tell you some of her thoughts about this research and how to know when to treat this and when not. She does a class and you might qualify to begin that class and that’s classroom … That’s a good thing. I’m going to unmute your mic, Kathleen.

Here we go. You there Kathleen? Hello?

Treating Lichen Sclerosus with the O-Shot® Procedure

Kathleen Posey MD, FACOG: How are you doing? Yeah, I’m here. Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: Yeah, so I just want to brag on you a little bit. I know this … I’m getting a lot of inquiries about lichen and some of it, non-surgeons are qualified to treat and some you refer instances like this. Maybe you can address what to look for, and how to take care of people, and not get into trouble. Your latest … I know that where you’ve been working for this protocol now for … Of course, you working on the surgical side and me taking notes on the PRP side, and doing the … Well, we published two papers with Andrew Goldstein and we published this so you talk about what you’re seeing and what your latest thoughts are of treating lichen if you don’t mind.

Kathleen: Okay, what I see a lot or hear a lot is the patients come in and tell me they are having painful intercourse, and they either bleed, or they tear, and or their ability to have an orgasm has really decreased. Usually, by that time, they have pretty advanced lichen. I do my exam, but they haven’t had a biopsy. I do biopsy everybody. Then I give them the offer. I offer them the option of doing the O-shot along with other PRP after I release the adhesion at the …

The main adhesions that are stopping them from having intercourse are down at the [inaudible 00:03:27]. It’s a band that forms there and there’s a lot of hesions between the vagina and the rectum. The clit, the formosis of the clitoris, I find, decreases the sensitivity and some have pain, but some have no pain. It’s more that they want to look normal and feel like a woman again, and they think their clitoris has gone away, which, of course, it hasn’t. It’s just covered over by scar tissue.

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With these patients, I start off releasing the various adhesions. Especially like this lady in the picture, you couldn’t even get … You couldn’t even do an O-shot right from the start because her vagina’s about the size of a pinball and you can get in there, and you can’t really get too much by her clitoris. I will release all the adhesions. By the time she left, I was able to do an O-shot, but where I also put the PRP is anywhere I’ve done surgery. Then I really infiltrate about 3 cc’s down to the post [inaudible 00:04:29]. I’ve also taken a 15 blade knife many times and gone up and down making slits and then spreading it so that they’re wider in the posterior part of the vagina, and the put the PRP on top of that.

About half the time it takes two applications. The second one I do six or eight weeks later. I’ve been doing this now for four years. This lady’s pretty bad, but I saw her about a month ago and she’s got more adhesions about the clitoris. I just … At first, this one, she couldn’t even urinate correctly. I had to release some more … She’s still able to have intercourse not hurting and not … I treat her about once a year, now, that lady. There are some ladies … Go to the last picture.

Charles Runels: This one?

Kathleen: No, go to the last picture. Keep going. Another one.

Charles Runels: That one?

 Chapter 15 (O-Shot®) Chapters 16 & 17 about radiofrequency and laser

Kathleen: Okay, this one. Yeah. Okay, that is the same one. This lady is not so complicated, but it still is hard. That clitoris is really bound down. When I first saw this lady, I was really afraid I’m going to have to take her to surgery, I’m not going to be able to do this, but this lady, I was able to unroof her [inaudible 00:06:04] and then you see what I’m talking about in the post [inaudible 00:06:08] is that band there?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: You see that, Charles? That band?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: You’ve got to release the band. Show that previous picture. Yeah, no the next picture where she’s treated. Where she looks normal, that’s it. See, she’s pretty … She came back … Can’t remember this, but I’m thinking one of the worse … I think it was six months later, I only treated her one time. Yeah, it was treated one time and she said, “I just put a white … Walk around where my index finger is, will you please retreat me?” She was having no pain, you’re unable to have intercourse where that first picture she was having a lot of pain.

I think that I’d be willing to train anybody who has some surgical procedure. This one, probably anybody that could do surgery, some surgery, can do. Those other ones, I don’t know. I think you’d probably have to be a gynecologist or urologist to really feel comfortable because you can get into some bleeding.

Then there’s the other patients that really … I had patients that have no scarring about the clitoris and just have that little band. I think you could treat that too. This lady-

Charles Runels: Yeah.

Kathleen: That to that, to that.

Charles Runels: Let me catch up with you in a bit. Let me just come in on a couple things that you say. I have seen now probably a half a dozen women and some of them in the classes I was teaching had a complaint was decreased ability to orgasm. No one had diagnosed the fact that you couldn’t get to their clitoris. They weren’t this to this degree, or just basically all scar tissue, but still there was enough phimosis … It couldn’t really get to the clitoris.

I saw a study presented at one of the meeting where someone actually documented … We say it doesn’t effect the clitoris, but there’s actually a study documenting that, that with lichen sclerosis it effects the hood and the clitoris is spared so as you said, I think the clitoris is gone if they’re lucky enough to be diagnosed which they often are not. If you have someone who complains of decreased ability to orgasm and you cannot expose the clitoris, even if it’s not lichen they probably should see someone whose … There are other causes for that and someone should look at them.

I think … Because you said, I think probably most people could learn to lis that, but they don’t want to because there’s something wrong. In my opinion, you would be a … You would have trouble explaining yourself unless you’re in some sort of surgical specialty. I think it’s better sent to one of our people.

The other thing I wanted to emphasize about what you said was that … As far as the biopsy goes, I don’t think that everyone in our group needs to be doing a biopsy, but not, like I said, difficult, but they may not want to do it. They just need to make sure someone’s had it done recently and actually treating the person. They should be sent back for follow up with whoever’s doing the biopsy. There’s a 10% chance [inaudible 00:09:36] carcinoma. We think …

Andrew Goldstein, I talked about this recently. We’re hopeful that because we’re showing decreased inflammation, that the chance of cancer is being decreased, but, which it is not using clobetasol. The cancer rate does not go down, but we’re hoping that our PRP decreases that rate.

Charles Runels: Anyway, I just wanted to kind of emphasize those things. Any other pearls about lichen? You’re bringing them back at six weeks and retreating, right? Is that what you’re still doing?

Kathleen: Most of the time, the last patient it’s about 50 50. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: Charles?

Charles Runels: I can. I can hear you.

Kathleen: The last patient, yeah I had only treated once and I thought that was a six month later picture. They’re running about 50 50. Let me go, there’s another picture, a couple other pictures in a camera of the one more.

Charles Runels: That don’t need the retreatment?

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Kathleen: Yeah, there are some people that don’t need a retreatment or they don’t need a retreatment at six weeks. They may need another one at six to 12 months. They’ll call you and say, “I’m having itching.” I’m from out of town. She’ll call up I’m having itching. When I went there, she had found a loner. You just got to exam and look and see what’s going on.

Charles Runels: Yeah. Okay.

Kathleen: There’s another picture, a previous picture.

Charles Runels: This one? This one?

Kathleen: No. No. Yes. It was that. No, you passed it. The one that had all the white on it.

Charles Runels: This one?

Kathleen: Yes. Yes. Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: What point do you want to make about this one?

Kathleen: What I wanted to say about this one is this lady, with a friend of mine had actually had a [inaudible 00:12:03], had posterior [inaudible 00:12:05] removed, painful intercourse. This is what I want to keep pointing out, that the pain is there. It didn’t help it. She comes in, and I was able to unroof her clit in the second picture, do the O-Shot, do PRP and got her. Then, three weeks later she had pain free intercourse. That after picture is three weeks later.

Charles Runels: Yeah, I think we should emphasize because we haven’t said it already, this lady had seven years without sexual intercourse, seven years since her husband had been able to have a penis and vagina intercourse when you treated her.

Kathleen: 12.

Charles Runels: Oh was it 12 years. Yeah, even though she was being seen by a dermatologist. These are extremely dramatic, life changing things that are going on in your office. I think part of the take home message is just knowing what to look for, whether you’re going to treat it or not, and if you see [inaudible 00:13:16] like this, to send it to one of the gynecologists in our group who knows how to do this, and I want to reshow everybody what you can do to let people know that you’re treating, willing to look at people with lichen because they’re eager to be treated.

If you click on buyer and provider, I have icons set up and so there’s a legend at the top, and there’s an icon for if you’re using radio frequency. There’s an icon for laser, an icon for if you treat lichen, and an icon for if you’re participating in our research. I’m not sure why it’s so slow to load. Hospital, excuse me, I’m on this hotel internet, so it’s moving kind of slow. Anyway, if you want to treat lichen, then please send me an email or just call our office and let us know, and we’ll put that little icon by your name. Let’s see what else.

Kathleen: Charles, I’d like to-

Charles Runels: The other thing while I was on the subject. Go ahead.

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Kathleen: Oh okay. I’d like to add one thing. I see a lot of people from out of town, and I’m having a lady, I can’t remember where she’s coming from. I think she’s somewhere in Florida, but I would like to treat her the first time and get rid of all her Adhesions, treat her, and then probably send her to somebody closer to home that can do it. I know I’ve seen her pictures. I know she’s going to have to be treated at six and eight weeks, six or eight weeks, and then if I find the people that are interested, I’ll send those people back to people that can handle them after the Adhesions have been taken care of.

Charles Runels: Yeah, that’s a good thought. I hadn’t thought about how it goes both ways. Yes, there’s actually one of our providers, I think in Oklahoma that sent some one down to New Orleans to see you. She was bragging about how much better she got but then the provider in Oklahoma was following it with a repeat treatment.

Here’s the little legend I have. We put this cartoon of a red labia and so if you want that by your name, just let me know so there it is. Any client, there’s yours. People are looking for that. Let us know and I’ll stick that by your name.

Easy Vs. Difficult Cases to Treat with the O-Shot® Procedure

I wanted to just list out while I’m at it and talking about the O-Shot, what I would consider to be the easy things that we treat versus the more difficult. I get a lot of questions about follow up and when do you retreat or not retreat and that sort of thing, so just wanted to recover that. Here’s our easy one. Nothing is 100% but these are the ones I think where over 80% of the time either after the first shot or the second one, you’re going to have an extremely happy patient. Maybe over 90% of the time in some cases, would be [inaudible 00:16:47], decrease orgasm, and someone who’s already able to have an orgasm. This would be the lady, she can have one but it’s not like what it used to be. Decreased orgasm but can have orgasm.

Then, it would be urinary incontinence and someone where things are intact, where bladder’s not falling out into the room. Even urgent continence, we’re seeing some great results. It’s usually a mixed bag for both, but then [inaudible 00:17:43]. I know that’s a basket diagnosis, but I mean even in the ones where it’s uncertain ideology, that doesn’t mean we don’t try to work it up. The person who’s had a work up and no one’s really sure what’s causing it and they’re still hurting, that for some reason that person seems to do well with us often. The one with pelvic floor tenderness, trying [inaudible 00:18:19] injection, you inject a trigger point with PRP so pelvic floor tenderness for mesh pain. I know you’ve got some ideas about that. I’ll let you talk about that in a second.

Mesh pain and the more difficult ones, the ones where if you’re new, I wouldn’t even try these people for the first two or three months, you don’t get discouraged, I treat these people but I think in these cases our success rate is maybe closer to 50% and maybe even less, 40% depending on the person’s age and other factors. It would be never had an orgasm in their life. I think those ladies are a little more difficult to treat. A person who wants to have penis and vagina orgasm. They can have one from a vibrator, but they can’t have one with sexual intercourse. Of course, we don’t have control of the penis of that equation. Both of these two ladies, we have successes, quite a few successes, but I think that our success rate on these ladies is probably less than 80%.

Can you comment some on this mesh pain? Are you still there Kathleen?

Kathleen: Just, yeah I’m still here. Can you hear me? Hello?

Charles Runels: Yes, very well. I can hear you.

Kathleen: I’ve done it when they had perianal pain from the nerve endings around the rectum, and I’ve just injected it all around the rectum. I’ve just injected it all around the rectum and it seems to work real well. Isn’t the doctor in Europe – [crosstalk 00:20:12] yeah, isn’t she putting PRP around the pudendal nerve to ultra sound for mesh people. The lady from Spain.

Charles Runels: I heard a couple people talking about doing an old school pudendal nerve block. There was one study where the mesh was taken out and then infiltrated the field with PRP, but no one has done the study yet, showing our procedure helps it. Although, we’re seeing that even injecting the anterior vaginal wall where the mesh is. You’ve has some experience with how the mesh becomes wrapped around the pudendal nerve or something; can you talk about that? [crosstalk 00:21:00] Or something you read in –

Kathleen: One of my patients is a general surgeon at [inaudible 00:21:13] and there was an autopsy on a mesh patient, and the mesh was all entrapped with the pudendal nerve when they did the autopsy. But, even taking it out, it just has to come out in pieces. It’s so difficult. From my understanding, from that pain, injecting PRP around the … I wouldn’t do it. There are some people, that I think, do it. In Europe.

Charles Runels: [crosstalk 00:21:45] When you do it, is there some worry about injecting?

Kathleen: Yeah, just the anatomy. There’s too much you can screw up. I just don’t have the experience with ultrasound and looking around the vessels where the pudendal nerve is there.

Charles Runels: When we do pudendal nerve blocks … We did those in labor and delivery years ago. I’m hearing that just that will calm it down. Is there something about that that makes you nervous? I would have thought that was a pretty safe thing to do.

Kathleen: I think that’s safe. I’ve just done most of my deliveries with epidurals and not pudendal nerve blocks. No, I think that would be safe.

Charles Runels: Okay.

Kathleen: I would like to see what they’re doing [crosstalk 00:22:40].

Charles Runels: While I’m at it, I’ll make the list for the P-Shot® … What? I’m sorry what did you say?

Kathleen: I didn’t say anything. Nothing. I didn’t say anything.

Charles Runels: Oh, okay.

Easy vs. Difficult Problems to Treat with the P-Shot® Procedure

So, while I’m at it, I thought I’d do a list to the easy wins for the P-Shot®. So that would be decreased erection … And a reason for making this list, again, is all of us want to take care of people and not just take their money and make them well. When I don’t get someone well I give them their money back. I try to mostly take care of people I think I can get well. If you’re mostly taking care of the hard cases, I’m losing money. I recommend that you mostly take care of the easy wins, especially in the beginning, so that you don’t become discouraged.

I’ve seen a couple of our providers, just right out of the box, try the really hard cases. If the first two O-Shot®s you do are in women who’ve never had an orgasm in their life, and they don’t work, you lose confidence in the procedure. So stick to the ones that we know have a high percentage of success.

For the Priapus shot, we have decreased erection, but can still get an erection. In other words, on that erection scale from 5 to 25, they’re above 10, at least somewhere in that neighborhood. They’ll bump up about seven on that scale from your shot.

Peyronie’s disease. The interesting thing is, our easy win is most other physician’s hard win, so you still can be a hero and do wonderful things for people if you stick to the easy stuff.

[inaudible 00:24:35] Closed prostate surgery to help with recovery, but it’s in the person who could get an erection prior to surgery, of course. You do the whole protocol, and that’s on our Priapus shot website. Where you include both for Peyronie’s and the prostate surgery, including the pump and maybe even low dose Cialis as part of the protocol.

Again, lichen, we’re going to get lichen too. Lichen sclerosus, not planus … Although, I think you treated some lichen planus didn’t you? Kathleen?

Kathleen: Yes. Yes.

Charles Runels: [crosstalk 00:25:26] We had that anecdotal initially; I should put this up here. I treated a woman with extremely severe scleroderma, and they can have horrible problems with intercourse. It was a life changing thing for her with one procedure. Lichen sclerosis in men is an easy win.

The hard wins for men, I think, if their main reason for getting the shot is for penis growth … Although, sometimes that can be very rewarding. It can be frustrating, often times, in the men who has the most urgency about growing. So the men who has the three inch erection responds, in my experience, less dramatically than the guy with the six or seven inch erection or a five inch erection.

It’s a percentage of growth than the absolute. So if there is 10% growth on the smaller penis, it’s less noticeable results. Then the person who has long standing diabetes or whatever cause of erectile dysfunction, basically he has no response at all. [inaudible 00:26:55] There’s no response at all to Viagra or TriMix, and that person who probably has some vascular disease proximal to the penis is not likely to get well.

Those are my easy wins and hard wins for the Priapus shot and want to stick to these easy wins in the beginning.

Anything you’d add to that, Kathleen?

Kathleen: Nope. I think you got it.

Charles Runels: Okay.

How to do your own webinars to educate your patients…

I always like to cover something with marketing too. Let’s see if I have any new questions from the [inaudible 00:27:32]. There weren’t that many on the websites on this time around. Let’s see. I don’t see any coming through.

I think there is something meant to be noticed about, as far as the marketing goes, what I’m doing right now. This is a wonderful way to create interest before I was part of this amazing group of physicians. I would do webinars, just like this, for patients.

Back in the day, before I started doing the internet, it wasn’t webinars. It was a conference call. I would record the call and put that on the website. So, if you, as a marketing idea, the best marketing is to teach people how to be well. If you put out an email to your patient, whatever it is you want to talk about … Maybe it is dyspareunia or erectile dysfunction, or urinary incontinence, or something that we’re not even talking about here; maybe it’s something to do with the way you do Botox. If you want to do a webinar like this, the software is very simple to do both setting this up, as well as recording it. Then you have something that can go on your website and play, and play, and play.

I thought I would show you guys where I do this. I know you have to log in to go webinar.com to get here. This is the software … GoToMeeting.com or GoToWebinar.com and they have plans that are not that expensive. Then, you send out an email to your people, you schedule it … and what you’ll find is, that even if just one person shows up, that the content you deliver is on a different level than if you sat down and just said “okay, I’m just going to record an audio or a video about urinary incontinence.”

Then when you’re done, you have the video and you can tell your webmaster to put that on your webpage somewhere. It looks like this. Most of you guys have seen this, but when I do these webinars, I put the recording either on the membership site or I put on our Cellular Medicine Association website. It just sits there to play.

This is probably the best advice I can give you about marketing to your patients. If you teach people about the disease and how to get well, then they will trust you to take care of their disease. If you go through the trouble to teach them how to be well, then they’re much more likely to trust you to take care of them.

So, the short version: teach people about the disease and they will trust you to take care of their disease.

It’s really an amazing time that we live in that we can just, almost no money, wherever you are on the planet, you can just sit down and have a conversation like this with your patients. Then when you’re done, you have a video that you can play for them perpetually on your website.

I think that’s all I have for today, unless you guys have other questions. I’ll put the transcript for this up within the next 24-hours and a link to the book that I recommended, and I’m always honored that you’re here.

Thank you for the help, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Thank you too.

Charles Runels: Alright, you guys have a good day. Bye.

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