PRP for Improved Sexual Function. International Society of Cosmetogynecology. Las Vegas 2018

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Transcript

Dr. Marco Pelosi III: Our next speaker is probably best described as the Michael Jordan of platelet rich plasma, Dr. Charles Runels from Alabama, that pioneered the O-Shot® [Orgasm Shot®], the Vampire [Face]lift®, the P-Shot® [Priapus Shot®], and he’s taken all the abuse and he’s given the world some very, very useful procedures for everyone. He’s going to talk about the studies he did and the studies done in platelet rich plasma in regards to sexual function. Dr. Runels, it’s a pleasure to have you here.

Dr. Runels: Thank you for having me.

I’m going to go through a whirlwind look at research that’s been done where people have used PRP to help with sex. Much of the research has been done by the people in our group, and I’ve described many of them in this room who have done this research. It’s a for-profit organization, but we pay for research, we pay for education, we pay for marketing for our providers. Just to echo what you just heard, sex is much more than about just having fun. Rainer Maria Rilke said it’s just so correlated to the creative experience that it’s affecting how we do our work, how you do your presentation, and how – of course – relationships and families.

I want to echo that sentiment, and remind us that back in 1980, if you look in ‘Urology’ – this was ‘Urology’ 1980 – the most common cause for erectile dysfunction was thought to be 85% psychogenic. Here’s a quote from ‘Urology’ where urologists were encouraged to become counselors, because most of erectile dysfunction was thought to be psychogenic. Of course, I’m echoing the penis stuff because if you take a penis and shrink it and unzip it, that becomes a clitoris. I’m thinking most of the research will eventually apply to that. Certainly, our attitude is applying because we’re back in the … We’re not, I’m preaching to the choir, but many of our colleagues are back in the 1980’s and saying the main thing we have for sexuality for women is counseling.

My thinking that perhaps, as you guys do, some of the pathology that applies to the penis may apply to the clitoris, and maybe some of these women are suffering from actual genital histopathology, not just psychogenic problems. We have this one FDA approved drug now for female sexual dysfunction that’s a psych drug, flibanserin. It’s a useful drug, but obviously, we need much more and maybe we should think in terms of systems, like we do for the rest of the body.

Platelet Rich Plasma.

Obviously, this is not a new idea. This is from, this month, over 9,000 papers indexed in PubMed about platelet rich plasma. Our orthopedic colleagues, our dentist, our facial plastic surgeons have worked with this, and all we have to do is take their ideas and then hopefully people in this room will extend what I’m about to show you and just take those ideas and adapt them to the genital space. Here’s some of the growth factors we know about. There are many more. They have these effects. These are good things for the genitalia. Down-regulating autoimmune response, proliferation of fibroblasts, new angiogenesis, the adipocytes enlarge and multiply – think labia majora, collagen production, neurogenesis and maybe some glandular function.

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There’s never, in all those 9,000 papers, I still cannot find one serious side effect. No granulomas, no serious infection. PRP is what your body makes to heal when you do your surgeries and help prevent infection. Obviously, there are always certain things that can happen, bruising and such, but if you have a serious life-threatening complication from PRP, you will have the first recorded in all of that 9,000 plus papers. That’s a nice thing.

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We have commercially available methods for preparing it, within 5 or 10 minutes of the bedside, and the devices are FDA approved. So you guys don’t get confused, obviously the FDA does not approve your procedures. That’s a doctor business. They don’t approve blood that belongs to you, just like your spit and your saliva and your skin. They tried, at one time, to control eggs and the gynecologists said, “Hell no.” So they don’t control eggs and they don’t control blood, but you should use an FDA approved device if you do this [approved for preparation of PRP to go back into the body].

Autoimmune Disease

Here’s some of the ideas about down-regulating autoimmune response. We have split-scalp studies showing that PRP helps alopecia areata better than triamcinolone. More hair growth that comes in thicker. Here’s rat studies looking at rheumatoid arthritis. What do we have in the genital space? We have lichens sclerosus. We did some before and after pictures where you use stem cells mixed with PRP, and before and after pictures show improvement. Of course, that’s two variables because you have stem cells and you have the PRP.

We took the same idea and just used PRP. Andrew Goldstein worked with me on this, and we had two blinded dermatopathologists. The protocol was biopsy, PRP, wait six weeks later, another PRP injection, and then six weeks after that, another biopsy. Two blinded dermatopathologists out of George Washington University did not know the before or the after. We showed statistical improvement in both the histology and symptomatology. Here’s our histology. You can see obviously, that’s the same magnification and we’re showing decreased hyperkeratosis. That’s obviously healthier tissue. A layperson could tell that’s better. Of course if you look at the gross pictures, lady on the left as you guys know, she has pain wearing her blue jeans. The lady on the right is back to making love to her husband. They’ve invited me into their close Facebook groups and I saw a post a few months ago. Quote says, “I was sitting next to my husband, whom I love, last night. I was afraid to hold his hand because I was afraid he would become aroused and I’m bleeding and hurting today.” That’s what you guys are helping.

We published that in ‘Lower Genital Tract Disease’. We extended it because it worked. We published this past January in the journal of the American Academy of Dermatology. You have some science to go do this now.

One of our providers, Kathleen Posey, who’s a gynecologist out of New Orleans, took this idea and then she said, “Let’s do some dissection in the office”, and she presented this in Argentina, published it in the same journal ‘Lower Genital Tract Disease’. Here’s one of her patients, where you can introduce [inaudible 00:06:44]. It had been 12 years since she had had sexual intercourse, penis and vagina intercourse, with her loving husband … 12 years. She was being followed by a dermatologist on high dose clobetasol. Kathleen dissected it out in the office and then injected PRP … 8 weeks later, she’s having comfortable sex with her husband. She’s now 3 years out. She’s had to be treated with PRP, not repeat surgery … PRP now, 2 other times a year apart to maintain that result. She now has a series of 60 or so patients that she’s now going to publish with similar results, where she’s dissecting out – as you guys know how to do – treating the [inaudible 00:07:27], but then following that with PRP injections to help the healing and decease the autoimmune response.

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That same doctor, Casabona, repeated his study with lichen sclerosus in men [BXO], and showed with just PRP alone … This study of 45 men with repeat treatments … It is cumulative, 2 to 10 treatments, the same thing. All of them stopped their steroids. None of them started back. Only one went on to have circumcision.

Peyronie’s

Peyronie’s disease, another autoimmune disease … This came out this month out of Wake Forest, where they took men and they followed their results with Peyronie’s disease. Not only did their Peyronie’s improve statistically, but they also improved their erectile dysfunction by 5 on that scale of 5 to 25 that the urologists use. For some reason, thankfully, they threw in one woman just for good measure, and showed that it helped her incontinence. They just tucked that in as an aftermath.

Ronald Virag, as you guys know as the legendary vascular surgeon who was first to present the idea of intracavernosal injections for erectile dysfunction, out of Paris. His big thing now is PRP for Peyronie’s. He just published a study where he showed that this is comparing PRP with Xiapex, which is a $50,000 series of injections, FDA approved version of collagenase. He showed that PRP works better with few side effects. There’s a risk of about 1 in 30, that actually go from a bent pencil to a fractured pencil and a limp noodle. You don’t see that with PRP. You see the side effect is the erectile function improves. He showed the same thing, actually, in his studies that erectile dysfunction improves by an average of about 7 on that 5 to 25 point scale.

Wound Healing/Scar Resolution

Let’s think about the [inaudible 00:09:29] literature. Look at this, there’s so much of this out there. This is looking at post-operative adhesions, lots of studies looking at scarring with microneedling and PRP. This is a split-face study comparing PRP with microneedling verus PRP … Excuse me, microneedling with saline or Vitamin C serum and split-faced studies in PRP wins. Dr. Sclafani did some studies in the cosmetic space looking at increased collagen production and fibroblast activity, and never a neoplasia documented. People worry about that. This is not indiscriminate blindness blind growth. You don’t worry about carcinogenesis when you do surgery and it’s the same PRP that’s causing healing. There’s actually some helpful immune processes that go on, that you could argue actually might help prevent cancer. I’m not going to make that argument but it might need to be made one day.

If you look further, here’s a wound healing study looking at reepithelialized exposed bone and tendon of the foot and ankle. When I took that and applied, this is a hypertrophic scar that was a year old from cortisone, and then using PRP and Juvederm or HA filler, this is a few days later, a month later, and that’s a year later. Now, take that and think, “How could I use that in the genitourinary space?” Doing that anecdotally, we have many of the members of our group are seeing help with episiotomy scars or dyspareunia, pelvic foreplay instead of injecting that pelvic floor tenderness with triamcinolone. Physiatrist for the past ten years has been using PRP, your sports medicine doctors. Now, when you palpate it, consider injecting with PRP instead. Dyspareunia from mesh and that unknown dyspareunia, we’re seeing this is where we need you guys to help extend the research. The science is there that it should help and it seems to be helping. Not 100%, but about 80% in people with dyspareunia.

Mesh Pain

Here is a look at a gentleman who did … He took the mesh out and then he patched the hole with a gel form of PRP and showed benefit. We’re finding anecdotally – no one’s done this study yet, here’s another one for you to pick up … I’m giving you low hanging fruit. We’re seeing anecdotally that if you inject in the distribution of the pudendal nerve, which seems to be inflamed in some women with mesh pain, that their pain will frequently go from 9 out of 10 down to 1 or 2 out of 10, without even taking the mesh out. Just another place where we need some research done.

Interstitial Cystitis

Here, we have rat studies looking at inflammation. Let’s think about this one. Here’s a rat study where they modeled cystitis and we are seeing in chronic interstitial cystitis without even infiltrating the bladder, just infiltrating in the periurethral space, some of our women are getting better. I’ve had two separate urologists call me and say, “Charles, I can’t believe it. I was doing this and expecting not this to happen. I have these patients now who have had chronic interstitial cystitis pain for years, and it’s gone.” Not 1005 but finding out who’s going to respond and who’s not and why, there’s a lot of variables that need to be thought about that you guys will hopefully do the research.

Penis Growth

Here’s a study that came out in the ‘Journal of Sexual Medicine’, where a guy took … the [inaudible 00:12:51] men who have an erection of 3 inches or less and then he treated them with PRP, combined with a pump, and showed that if you repeated it every time you did it, it grew by about 7 millimeters. I’ve always thought if I could give you a guarantee half an inch to an inch with anything, I’d get my picture on a postage stamp. I don’t have that yet, but I can tell you that we’re seeing about 60% of the time we do this procedure, men will see some sort of growth.

If you look at the neovascular space, there was a study out of Southern California that was published in the ‘Journal of Sexual Medicine’ where they transferred adipocyte stem cells to the penis of diabetic rats. They showed new endothelial cell growth and increased nitric oxide activity in the dorsal nerve. Would that be helpful in the clitoris? Probably, but the interesting thing is the adipocyte-derived stem cells were attacked and they died. The postulate was the improvement was from the growth factors.

Penile Rehabilitation and Erectile Dysfunction

I have seen what [inaudible 00:13:52] have seen in that when you inject this in the penis, erectile function goes up on the average of about 5 to 7 per injection. Think about nerve repair. We have rat studies modeling prostrate surgery, showing that the nerves improved with PRP and so we have, again, another clear place where we need studies if you add this now to the usual protocol for rehabilitating the penis post-prostate surgery … would you see benefit? We have seen that in some of our patients who are a year or two out who failed the rehabilitation part of that. Would that help your patients who have, say, numbness and decreased function from riding their bikes too much, or trauma? I don’t know, but it’s worth thinking about and publishing research about.

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In thinking about where to put this, where we do our O-Shot, when we do PRP to the anterior vaginal wall, we’re putting it as distal from the bladder as possible. We found that it works better. We’re essentially making a liquid sling. Think infiltrating and getting ready to put in the mesh. That’s what we’re doing. Very simple, only we’re using a material that has never caused a granuloma ever. Doing that, frequently our patients will have their incontinence go away that day from the actual liquid and as it’s replaced with new tissue, it never recurs. Usually, you’ll have to repeat the procedure at a year or two out depending on the etiology. Sometimes it lasts longer.

The interesting idea is what might be happening with those [inaudible 00:15:21]. They become more active, and does that help with sexual function? The other place we put it is in the actual corpus cavernosum of the clitoris. We use [inaudible 00:15:29] ultrasound visualization and see it flow down into the body of the clitoris by the pubic ramus and the wave form goes to what you see in a flaccid penis to what you see in an erect penis.

Improved Orgasm & Libido in Women

That’s my time, almost done. Just 30 more seconds. Here’s a pilot study we did where we showed that in women with female sexual distress, that it dropped by an average of 10 and female sexual function went up by 5 when you do what I just showed you. Here’s a study that Dr. Neto, who may be here, published where he looked at incontinence and sexual function down in Brazil and showed that 94% of the people loved it. The question here is how would you combine it with your energy source? It works great in the face if you do laser and follow it with PRP … better results, faster healing. Is it going to … We need people to help us work out the algorithms. Not everybody has laxity, but when you have something, when do you use which treatment and when do you combine it with PRP? We need those answers, because I don’t have them yet. This is possible helps.

I am done. Thank you very much for having me. I put all these references at that website, if you want to go download them. Thank you. You guys have a wonderful conference.

Dr. Marco Pelosi III: Thank you Charles. Beautiful

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Q & A. Lichen Sclerosus, P-Shot® & O-Shot® easy & hard cases


Transcription…

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Charles Runels: I’m doing this broadcast from Las Vegas today. There’s an [A4M 00:00:12] meeting and I was trying to make sure I’m up to date on a few things. I bumped into one of the authors of this textbook.

I’ll try to let you guys know what I’m doing to try to keep up with our area of interest. I found … One of the authors who’s a Pharm D [Angela Pressman, PhD], wrote a chapter of this book and she alerted me to it. I haven’t read it yet, but I bought it and I’ll let you know, but it looks like it could be relevant to what we do.

Recent Press

Let’s see what else is going on. I want to let you guys that we’ve put out some … We’ve put out a press release about some of Dr. Posey’s research about the O-Shot® (Orgasm Shot®) procedure and treating lichen sclerosus …so you may get some questions [from your patients] about that. I thought you might want to know more about what you should treat and what you shouldn’t treat if you’re doing lichens sclerosus. She’s actually on the call so I think I may undo her mic so she can tell you some of her thoughts about this research and how to know when to treat this and when not. She does a class and you might qualify to begin that class and that’s classroom … That’s a good thing. I’m going to unmute your mic, Kathleen.

Here we go. You there Kathleen? Hello?

Treating Lichen Sclerosus with the O-Shot® Procedure

Kathleen Posey MD, FACOG: How are you doing? Yeah, I’m here. Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: Yeah, so I just want to brag on you a little bit. I know this … I’m getting a lot of inquiries about lichen and some of it, non-surgeons are qualified to treat and some you refer instances like this. Maybe you can address what to look for, and how to take care of people, and not get into trouble. Your latest … I know that where you’ve been working for this protocol now for … Of course, you working on the surgical side and me taking notes on the PRP side, and doing the … Well, we published two papers with Andrew Goldstein and we published this so you talk about what you’re seeing and what your latest thoughts are of treating lichen if you don’t mind.

Kathleen: Okay, what I see a lot or hear a lot is the patients come in and tell me they are having painful intercourse, and they either bleed, or they tear, and or their ability to have an orgasm has really decreased. Usually, by that time, they have pretty advanced lichen. I do my exam, but they haven’t had a biopsy. I do biopsy everybody. Then I give them the offer. I offer them the option of doing the O-shot along with other PRP after I release the adhesion at the …

The main adhesions that are stopping them from having intercourse are down at the [inaudible 00:03:27]. It’s a band that forms there and there’s a lot of hesions between the vagina and the rectum. The clit, the formosis of the clitoris, I find, decreases the sensitivity and some have pain, but some have no pain. It’s more that they want to look normal and feel like a woman again, and they think their clitoris has gone away, which, of course, it hasn’t. It’s just covered over by scar tissue.

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With these patients, I start off releasing the various adhesions. Especially like this lady in the picture, you couldn’t even get … You couldn’t even do an O-shot right from the start because her vagina’s about the size of a pinball and you can get in there, and you can’t really get too much by her clitoris. I will release all the adhesions. By the time she left, I was able to do an O-shot, but where I also put the PRP is anywhere I’ve done surgery. Then I really infiltrate about 3 cc’s down to the post [inaudible 00:04:29]. I’ve also taken a 15 blade knife many times and gone up and down making slits and then spreading it so that they’re wider in the posterior part of the vagina, and the put the PRP on top of that.

About half the time it takes two applications. The second one I do six or eight weeks later. I’ve been doing this now for four years. This lady’s pretty bad, but I saw her about a month ago and she’s got more adhesions about the clitoris. I just … At first, this one, she couldn’t even urinate correctly. I had to release some more … She’s still able to have intercourse not hurting and not … I treat her about once a year, now, that lady. There are some ladies … Go to the last picture.

Charles Runels: This one?

Kathleen: No, go to the last picture. Keep going. Another one.

Charles Runels: That one?

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Kathleen: Okay, this one. Yeah. Okay, that is the same one. This lady is not so complicated, but it still is hard. That clitoris is really bound down. When I first saw this lady, I was really afraid I’m going to have to take her to surgery, I’m not going to be able to do this, but this lady, I was able to unroof her [inaudible 00:06:04] and then you see what I’m talking about in the post [inaudible 00:06:08] is that band there?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: You see that, Charles? That band?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: You’ve got to release the band. Show that previous picture. Yeah, no the next picture where she’s treated. Where she looks normal, that’s it. See, she’s pretty … She came back … Can’t remember this, but I’m thinking one of the worse … I think it was six months later, I only treated her one time. Yeah, it was treated one time and she said, “I just put a white … Walk around where my index finger is, will you please retreat me?” She was having no pain, you’re unable to have intercourse where that first picture she was having a lot of pain.

I think that I’d be willing to train anybody who has some surgical procedure. This one, probably anybody that could do surgery, some surgery, can do. Those other ones, I don’t know. I think you’d probably have to be a gynecologist or urologist to really feel comfortable because you can get into some bleeding.

Then there’s the other patients that really … I had patients that have no scarring about the clitoris and just have that little band. I think you could treat that too. This lady-

Charles Runels: Yeah.

Kathleen: That to that, to that.

Charles Runels: Let me catch up with you in a bit. Let me just come in on a couple things that you say. I have seen now probably a half a dozen women and some of them in the classes I was teaching had a complaint was decreased ability to orgasm. No one had diagnosed the fact that you couldn’t get to their clitoris. They weren’t this to this degree, or just basically all scar tissue, but still there was enough phimosis … It couldn’t really get to the clitoris.

I saw a study presented at one of the meeting where someone actually documented … We say it doesn’t effect the clitoris, but there’s actually a study documenting that, that with lichen sclerosis it effects the hood and the clitoris is spared so as you said, I think the clitoris is gone if they’re lucky enough to be diagnosed which they often are not. If you have someone who complains of decreased ability to orgasm and you cannot expose the clitoris, even if it’s not lichen they probably should see someone whose … There are other causes for that and someone should look at them.

I think … Because you said, I think probably most people could learn to lis that, but they don’t want to because there’s something wrong. In my opinion, you would be a … You would have trouble explaining yourself unless you’re in some sort of surgical specialty. I think it’s better sent to one of our people.

The other thing I wanted to emphasize about what you said was that … As far as the biopsy goes, I don’t think that everyone in our group needs to be doing a biopsy, but not, like I said, difficult, but they may not want to do it. They just need to make sure someone’s had it done recently and actually treating the person. They should be sent back for follow up with whoever’s doing the biopsy. There’s a 10% chance [inaudible 00:09:36] carcinoma. We think …

Andrew Goldstein, I talked about this recently. We’re hopeful that because we’re showing decreased inflammation, that the chance of cancer is being decreased, but, which it is not using clobetasol. The cancer rate does not go down, but we’re hoping that our PRP decreases that rate.

Charles Runels: Anyway, I just wanted to kind of emphasize those things. Any other pearls about lichen? You’re bringing them back at six weeks and retreating, right? Is that what you’re still doing?

Kathleen: Most of the time, the last patient it’s about 50 50. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: Yes.

Kathleen: Charles?

Charles Runels: I can. I can hear you.

Kathleen: The last patient, yeah I had only treated once and I thought that was a six month later picture. They’re running about 50 50. Let me go, there’s another picture, a couple other pictures in a camera of the one more.

Charles Runels: That don’t need the retreatment?

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Kathleen: Yeah, there are some people that don’t need a retreatment or they don’t need a retreatment at six weeks. They may need another one at six to 12 months. They’ll call you and say, “I’m having itching.” I’m from out of town. She’ll call up I’m having itching. When I went there, she had found a loner. You just got to exam and look and see what’s going on.

Charles Runels: Yeah. Okay.

Kathleen: There’s another picture, a previous picture.

Charles Runels: This one? This one?

Kathleen: No. No. Yes. It was that. No, you passed it. The one that had all the white on it.

Charles Runels: This one?

Kathleen: Yes. Yes. Can you hear me?

Charles Runels: What point do you want to make about this one?

Kathleen: What I wanted to say about this one is this lady, with a friend of mine had actually had a [inaudible 00:12:03], had posterior [inaudible 00:12:05] removed, painful intercourse. This is what I want to keep pointing out, that the pain is there. It didn’t help it. She comes in, and I was able to unroof her clit in the second picture, do the O-Shot, do PRP and got her. Then, three weeks later she had pain free intercourse. That after picture is three weeks later.

Charles Runels: Yeah, I think we should emphasize because we haven’t said it already, this lady had seven years without sexual intercourse, seven years since her husband had been able to have a penis and vagina intercourse when you treated her.

Kathleen: 12.

Charles Runels: Oh was it 12 years. Yeah, even though she was being seen by a dermatologist. These are extremely dramatic, life changing things that are going on in your office. I think part of the take home message is just knowing what to look for, whether you’re going to treat it or not, and if you see [inaudible 00:13:16] like this, to send it to one of the gynecologists in our group who knows how to do this, and I want to reshow everybody what you can do to let people know that you’re treating, willing to look at people with lichen because they’re eager to be treated.

If you click on buyer and provider, I have icons set up and so there’s a legend at the top, and there’s an icon for if you’re using radio frequency. There’s an icon for laser, an icon for if you treat lichen, and an icon for if you’re participating in our research. I’m not sure why it’s so slow to load. Hospital, excuse me, I’m on this hotel internet, so it’s moving kind of slow. Anyway, if you want to treat lichen, then please send me an email or just call our office and let us know, and we’ll put that little icon by your name. Let’s see what else.

Kathleen: Charles, I’d like to-

Charles Runels: The other thing while I was on the subject. Go ahead.

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Kathleen: Oh okay. I’d like to add one thing. I see a lot of people from out of town, and I’m having a lady, I can’t remember where she’s coming from. I think she’s somewhere in Florida, but I would like to treat her the first time and get rid of all her Adhesions, treat her, and then probably send her to somebody closer to home that can do it. I know I’ve seen her pictures. I know she’s going to have to be treated at six and eight weeks, six or eight weeks, and then if I find the people that are interested, I’ll send those people back to people that can handle them after the Adhesions have been taken care of.

Charles Runels: Yeah, that’s a good thought. I hadn’t thought about how it goes both ways. Yes, there’s actually one of our providers, I think in Oklahoma that sent some one down to New Orleans to see you. She was bragging about how much better she got but then the provider in Oklahoma was following it with a repeat treatment.

Here’s the little legend I have. We put this cartoon of a red labia and so if you want that by your name, just let me know so there it is. Any client, there’s yours. People are looking for that. Let us know and I’ll stick that by your name.

Easy Vs. Difficult Cases to Treat with the O-Shot® Procedure

I wanted to just list out while I’m at it and talking about the O-Shot, what I would consider to be the easy things that we treat versus the more difficult. I get a lot of questions about follow up and when do you retreat or not retreat and that sort of thing, so just wanted to recover that. Here’s our easy one. Nothing is 100% but these are the ones I think where over 80% of the time either after the first shot or the second one, you’re going to have an extremely happy patient. Maybe over 90% of the time in some cases, would be [inaudible 00:16:47], decrease orgasm, and someone who’s already able to have an orgasm. This would be the lady, she can have one but it’s not like what it used to be. Decreased orgasm but can have orgasm.

Then, it would be urinary incontinence and someone where things are intact, where bladder’s not falling out into the room. Even urgent continence, we’re seeing some great results. It’s usually a mixed bag for both, but then [inaudible 00:17:43]. I know that’s a basket diagnosis, but I mean even in the ones where it’s uncertain ideology, that doesn’t mean we don’t try to work it up. The person who’s had a work up and no one’s really sure what’s causing it and they’re still hurting, that for some reason that person seems to do well with us often. The one with pelvic floor tenderness, trying [inaudible 00:18:19] injection, you inject a trigger point with PRP so pelvic floor tenderness for mesh pain. I know you’ve got some ideas about that. I’ll let you talk about that in a second.

Mesh pain and the more difficult ones, the ones where if you’re new, I wouldn’t even try these people for the first two or three months, you don’t get discouraged, I treat these people but I think in these cases our success rate is maybe closer to 50% and maybe even less, 40% depending on the person’s age and other factors. It would be never had an orgasm in their life. I think those ladies are a little more difficult to treat. A person who wants to have penis and vagina orgasm. They can have one from a vibrator, but they can’t have one with sexual intercourse. Of course, we don’t have control of the penis of that equation. Both of these two ladies, we have successes, quite a few successes, but I think that our success rate on these ladies is probably less than 80%.

Can you comment some on this mesh pain? Are you still there Kathleen?

Kathleen: Just, yeah I’m still here. Can you hear me? Hello?

Charles Runels: Yes, very well. I can hear you.

Kathleen: I’ve done it when they had perianal pain from the nerve endings around the rectum, and I’ve just injected it all around the rectum. I’ve just injected it all around the rectum and it seems to work real well. Isn’t the doctor in Europe – [crosstalk 00:20:12] yeah, isn’t she putting PRP around the pudendal nerve to ultra sound for mesh people. The lady from Spain.

Charles Runels: I heard a couple people talking about doing an old school pudendal nerve block. There was one study where the mesh was taken out and then infiltrated the field with PRP, but no one has done the study yet, showing our procedure helps it. Although, we’re seeing that even injecting the anterior vaginal wall where the mesh is. You’ve has some experience with how the mesh becomes wrapped around the pudendal nerve or something; can you talk about that? [crosstalk 00:21:00] Or something you read in –

Kathleen: One of my patients is a general surgeon at [inaudible 00:21:13] and there was an autopsy on a mesh patient, and the mesh was all entrapped with the pudendal nerve when they did the autopsy. But, even taking it out, it just has to come out in pieces. It’s so difficult. From my understanding, from that pain, injecting PRP around the … I wouldn’t do it. There are some people, that I think, do it. In Europe.

Charles Runels: [crosstalk 00:21:45] When you do it, is there some worry about injecting?

Kathleen: Yeah, just the anatomy. There’s too much you can screw up. I just don’t have the experience with ultrasound and looking around the vessels where the pudendal nerve is there.

Charles Runels: When we do pudendal nerve blocks … We did those in labor and delivery years ago. I’m hearing that just that will calm it down. Is there something about that that makes you nervous? I would have thought that was a pretty safe thing to do.

Kathleen: I think that’s safe. I’ve just done most of my deliveries with epidurals and not pudendal nerve blocks. No, I think that would be safe.

Charles Runels: Okay.

Kathleen: I would like to see what they’re doing [crosstalk 00:22:40].

Charles Runels: While I’m at it, I’ll make the list for the P-Shot® … What? I’m sorry what did you say?

Kathleen: I didn’t say anything. Nothing. I didn’t say anything.

Charles Runels: Oh, okay.

Easy vs. Difficult Problems to Treat with the P-Shot® Procedure

So, while I’m at it, I thought I’d do a list to the easy wins for the P-Shot®. So that would be decreased erection … And a reason for making this list, again, is all of us want to take care of people and not just take their money and make them well. When I don’t get someone well I give them their money back. I try to mostly take care of people I think I can get well. If you’re mostly taking care of the hard cases, I’m losing money. I recommend that you mostly take care of the easy wins, especially in the beginning, so that you don’t become discouraged.

I’ve seen a couple of our providers, just right out of the box, try the really hard cases. If the first two O-Shot®s you do are in women who’ve never had an orgasm in their life, and they don’t work, you lose confidence in the procedure. So stick to the ones that we know have a high percentage of success.

For the Priapus shot, we have decreased erection, but can still get an erection. In other words, on that erection scale from 5 to 25, they’re above 10, at least somewhere in that neighborhood. They’ll bump up about seven on that scale from your shot.

Peyronie’s disease. The interesting thing is, our easy win is most other physician’s hard win, so you still can be a hero and do wonderful things for people if you stick to the easy stuff.

[inaudible 00:24:35] Closed prostate surgery to help with recovery, but it’s in the person who could get an erection prior to surgery, of course. You do the whole protocol, and that’s on our Priapus shot website. Where you include both for Peyronie’s and the prostate surgery, including the pump and maybe even low dose Cialis as part of the protocol.

Again, lichen, we’re going to get lichen too. Lichen sclerosus, not planus … Although, I think you treated some lichen planus didn’t you? Kathleen?

Kathleen: Yes. Yes.

Charles Runels: [crosstalk 00:25:26] We had that anecdotal initially; I should put this up here. I treated a woman with extremely severe scleroderma, and they can have horrible problems with intercourse. It was a life changing thing for her with one procedure. Lichen sclerosis in men is an easy win.

The hard wins for men, I think, if their main reason for getting the shot is for penis growth … Although, sometimes that can be very rewarding. It can be frustrating, often times, in the men who has the most urgency about growing. So the men who has the three inch erection responds, in my experience, less dramatically than the guy with the six or seven inch erection or a five inch erection.

It’s a percentage of growth than the absolute. So if there is 10% growth on the smaller penis, it’s less noticeable results. Then the person who has long standing diabetes or whatever cause of erectile dysfunction, basically he has no response at all. [inaudible 00:26:55] There’s no response at all to Viagra or TriMix, and that person who probably has some vascular disease proximal to the penis is not likely to get well.

Those are my easy wins and hard wins for the Priapus shot and want to stick to these easy wins in the beginning.

Anything you’d add to that, Kathleen?

Kathleen: Nope. I think you got it.

Charles Runels: Okay.

How to do your own webinars to educate your patients…

I always like to cover something with marketing too. Let’s see if I have any new questions from the [inaudible 00:27:32]. There weren’t that many on the websites on this time around. Let’s see. I don’t see any coming through.

I think there is something meant to be noticed about, as far as the marketing goes, what I’m doing right now. This is a wonderful way to create interest before I was part of this amazing group of physicians. I would do webinars, just like this, for patients.

Back in the day, before I started doing the internet, it wasn’t webinars. It was a conference call. I would record the call and put that on the website. So, if you, as a marketing idea, the best marketing is to teach people how to be well. If you put out an email to your patient, whatever it is you want to talk about … Maybe it is dyspareunia or erectile dysfunction, or urinary incontinence, or something that we’re not even talking about here; maybe it’s something to do with the way you do Botox. If you want to do a webinar like this, the software is very simple to do both setting this up, as well as recording it. Then you have something that can go on your website and play, and play, and play.

I thought I would show you guys where I do this. I know you have to log in to go webinar.com to get here. This is the software … GoToMeeting.com or GoToWebinar.com and they have plans that are not that expensive. Then, you send out an email to your people, you schedule it … and what you’ll find is, that even if just one person shows up, that the content you deliver is on a different level than if you sat down and just said “okay, I’m just going to record an audio or a video about urinary incontinence.”

Then when you’re done, you have the video and you can tell your webmaster to put that on your webpage somewhere. It looks like this. Most of you guys have seen this, but when I do these webinars, I put the recording either on the membership site or I put on our Cellular Medicine Association website. It just sits there to play.

This is probably the best advice I can give you about marketing to your patients. If you teach people about the disease and how to get well, then they will trust you to take care of their disease. If you go through the trouble to teach them how to be well, then they’re much more likely to trust you to take care of them.

So, the short version: teach people about the disease and they will trust you to take care of their disease.

It’s really an amazing time that we live in that we can just, almost no money, wherever you are on the planet, you can just sit down and have a conversation like this with your patients. Then when you’re done, you have a video that you can play for them perpetually on your website.

I think that’s all I have for today, unless you guys have other questions. I’ll put the transcript for this up within the next 24-hours and a link to the book that I recommended, and I’m always honored that you’re here.

Thank you for the help, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Thank you too.

Charles Runels: Alright, you guys have a good day. Bye.

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Q & A. Sept. 9, 2017


Transcript of Video/Webinar

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Charles Runels: Okay, let’s get started. The first question, we’re on the Vampire Breast Lift website, is actually a comment from Wendy Hurn.

Vampire Breast Lift® Questions…

She says, “I have performed several of these procedures to date and have amazing results around six weeks. My own, which is performed nine weeks ago, was amazing. Fullness and firmness with cleavage area many have commented upon. After breastfeeding in the past, I am delighted, so can pass this on to my patients with confidence.”

Thank you very much for writing Wendy.

This is one of those things where it almost seems too good to be true. I’m always grateful when our providers encourage each other. One thing about this when you do these procedures, just be sure you realize there’s a correlation and there’s causation and if you hand out 1,000 Tootsie Rolls to women who walk down the sidewalk, there will be some of them who get breast cancer. If you called it a Breast Lift Tootsie Roll, they might blame it on your Tootsie Roll. I think you can make a very strong argument that PRP is perhaps protective against cancer. We also have the strong research that if you look at the research part of the vampirebreastlift.com.

If you look at the Research tab, you’ll see there’s very good, very strong, research showing that when you mix PRP with fat and transfer it to the breast, there is a trend towards less cancer and there has been two really strong studies showing no increased risk of biopsy or recurrence rate in people who have had breast cancer and then being reconstructed, so it appears to be a very safe thing, but I would still do the same things that you would do for documentation if you were transferring fat to the breast. Most people know you transfer fat to mix it with PRP, so do those same protocols, just make sure the woman has been two things. Make sure seems been recently screened and that whoever keeps track of her breasts says that she’s good to go and number two, make sure you get a good consent form.

Second thing, but hopefully one of you guys will eventually do the research. I think that if you did, if you look at this trend towards less cancer, I think if you did a study where you injected the left breast of a thousand women, you would see a higher rate of breast cancer in the right breast. We don’t know that yet, but that’s what I suspect.

Next one is a question from Dr. Climikoski.

He says, “I have a patient who’s had breast implants and has loss of nipple sensitivity. Her primary concern is to regain the sensitivity back. She asked me, ‘What percentage of people that receive the Vampire Breast Lift do in fact have significant improvement in the sensitivity and are pleased with the results?’ If you provide me with an idea of this percentage, that would be helpful, as I’m a new provider for this procedure and don’t have my experience to draw from. Thank you.”

The answer to this one, I think, is … Again, we don’t have the research. In my practice, it is very near 100%. I’ve actually never had a failure when I was treated someone for loss of sensitivity after implants, but if they had extensive reconstruction, then all bets are off. When I talked to our providers, I hear everything from 50% are improved up to near 100%. I just wouldn’t promise this benefit if it’s for someone for extensive reconstruction, and with everything you do, I highly, highly, highly recommend that you offer a money back guarantee. When I treat this, usually it’s a woman who’s coming for improvement appearance and this is something she wants in addition to that. And so, she’s still happy if her sensitivity isn’t back like she thought it was, maybe, when she was 17. I’ve yet to have a woman tell me it did not make things better than before the procedure.

PRP Science-Techniques (what if the needle clogs?)

Next question is a woman who had … She just wrote this in to me. She says, “I had a 30-year-old,” this came an email but I thought we’d cover it here, she says, “I had a 30-year-old for her O-Shot. We used the Eclipse to spin the blood. My patients PRP was irregular in consistency and had clumps of what I thought had to be platelets. The 27 gauge needle and the syringe, for that matter, clogged a few times. I tried to force out the clumps from the syringe, but I’m wondering why this could’ve happened. Any comments appreciated in advance.”

There’s two things that could be causing clogging. I’ll tell you what they are and I’ll tell you how to deal with this because it can happen to everyone. First, it could be actually the platelet-rich fibrin matrix. I have seen clod up as quickly as two minutes out. This is why when I do this procedure, so in other words when the platelets are in the syringe, just sitting there, they can wait for about six hours in theory and still be okay to use, but once they’re activated; thereby, exposure to thrombin, calcium chloride, calcium gluconate, hyaluronic acid filler, or being excreted from the syringe back into the body exposed to collagen. All those things can cause the platelets to now degranulate, release the growth factors, and then the fluid of the plasma becomes congealed to hold the growth factors in place.

This is called platelet-rich fibrin matrix. It looks like goo inside your syringe. You may want to spend a syringe, activate it, and then just let it sit there and not use it so you can see what this looks like. It looks like little string or a little rubber band or something with a precipitate that forms in the syringe. It’s only probably 10%, 20% of the volume of the syringe will be clotted, but it makes a nice little linear precipitate in the syringe if you just let it sit and congeal. That’s what you’re making.

Now, if there’s turbulence and you’ve activated it can look clotted up in little clumps and that is what you’re seeing if there’s a delay. If you immediately take it out of the centrifuge and you see some little stringy things, maybe that’s platelet-rich fibrin matrix, but I’m not so convinced that sometimes it’s not some of the actual gel itself. I’m told that that’s not the case, but I’m not so clear that what that is and it could be the gel. In any case, I’ve never had it clog the syringe unless I’m slow about getting into the person’s body. When you’re drawing it out, use a … I use a 18-gauge needle to pull it out of the tube and then I have 25-gauge needles, literally within reach, so if I’m sitting there doing the O-Shot or whatever procedure have 25-gauge needles close by. If it starts to gel up and I can’t get it through the needle, then i just grab one of those and swap it out or sometimes you can just swap it before another 27 and whatever matrix is clogged the needle will be stuck in the needle, so when you get a new one, you can keep going. That’s the way to deal with that.

Try to have your patient all the way ready before you ever activate the platelet plasma when you do the O-Shot. Have 25-gauge needles within reach and fresh 27s and you should be okay. Oh, one other thing about the gel. We’ve had a few cases of urticaria. I’ve seen about, well, I’ve seen one myself in the face and I had another man who had some urticaria after Priapus Shot. In both cases, it went away with a Medrol Dose Pack. I’ve had two cases of urticaria reported to me by our providers. One after the face and one after an O-Shot where the woman got some urticaria of the inner thighs. All resolved without sequela using a Medrol Dose Pack.

If you look at the medical literature in some of the orthopedic literature, they talk about this happening and postulate that perhaps there’s a urticaria reaction that some people have to their platelets, but perhaps it’s from the gel itself. I just bring this up as a possibility. I don’t know why it happens, I just know it happens and that’s how you treat it. Maybe some of you guys can help us do that research.

Anything you would add to that Kathleen?

Kathleen Posey: No, but I actually think … I agree with the 25-gauge needle. I actually think I’ve used the 25-gauge needle more so than the 27 because the gel does really get thick and it makes it harder to push.

Charles Runels: So you use the … just routinely use the 25 for the anterior vaginal wall?

Kathleen Posey: Yes.

Charles Runels: While I’m here, just for those who may watch this video because this is all will be recorded and I’ll just post this to where people can see it. This gives a really nice simple diagram about where the material goes. I wonder sometimes if people are using enough. If you use the gel tube, I think you should probably spend three for each side of the breast. The price is set to where you can afford to do that. Basically, 15 milliliters of PRP for each side however you make your PRP. Some of the … I don’t know who knows, but I think some of the people who report not seeing much result are not using enough of this stuff. Let’s see. I think that’s all we had on the breast lift. Let’s look at some of the questions. By the way, anybody on the call who wants to ask a question, just click the raise your hand button and I’ll let you just say what it is you want to ask. Now, we’re on the O-Shot. That was the breast lift. Let’s go down the unanswered questions. By the way, if you ever want to ask a question, this is where to post it. Some of these have gone unanswered, but oftentimes our more experienced people will jump in there and answer a question. This is the way you get more than one opinion.

Priapus Shot® Questions…

Okay, so Dr. Ness has two questions. He uses the EPAT for erectile disfunction, along with PRP, after the fifth treatment and before the sixth. Should we inject PRP more often, say after every treatment? Also, has EPAT been used on women to augment the O-Shot? We’ll do this first question. I actually had an email from one of our urologists this morning. I’m seeing several variations, but most of the variations involve using PRP after the first treatment and after the last treatment, whatever your protocol is.

There was another research paper came out this past July in the Journal of Sexual Medicine showing that this works, but there’s no one that has done, okay, this protocol versus that. We’re still trying to figure this out. There’s a research paper for someone. Obviously, there’s two variables there, how you inject the PRP, or where and when, and how you do whatever physical therapy you’re doing.

More O-Shot® Tips…

I don’t know if anybody has anything to add to that, but the bottom line is that do whatever your normal protocol is, and then do your PRP after the first one and after the last one. Same thing with any sort of these physical therapies, lasers. Whether it’s shockwave therapy or it’s … and your frequency. I know you have the Thermi-Va, Kathleen. When are you adding in Thermi-Va when you do O-Shots?

Kathleen Posey: Well, I add it when they want to have improvement in the labia majora or want to decrease the size of their vagina. What I have noticed consistently now, having done enough of them, I really think when you decrease that distance between the clitoris and the vagina and/or urethra, the orgasms get stronger. I think, I’ve done enough now to know. The patients are telling me now, the ones that have had the Thermi-Va with the O-Shot, that the orgasm has gotten even more intense than the O-Shot, so I think that’s an added bonus.

I wish somebody would do the research to prove that it’s that distance because there’s such a problem when somebody has a baby and things get stretched out AP-wise. What you’re really stretching out is that length between the vagina and the clitoris, and then you’re constantly, as a gynecologist, “I used to be able to have orgasms with penis in vagina. Since I’ve had children, I cannot have orgasms with a penis in vagina.”

I’ve even seen C-section patients that haven’t had a vaginal birth, they’re still stretching out. They still have [inaudible 00:13:19]. They’re still having problems. I think, basically, probably gravity, but they do over somebody’s lifetime take away from your ability to have different types of orgasms.

Charles Runels: When it comes to you, do you do Thermi-Va and then O-Shot immediately following on the first visit, or how do you do your series when you’re combining those two therapies?

Kathleen Posey: Most of the time, I do the O-Shot and the Thermi-Va at the first visit, but sometimes it just depends. If they come in there and just say, “I’m here for the O-Shot,” I do that, and then after I do my exam, and I find they’ve had three kids, and I feel like they could benefit from the Thermi-Va, I give them the pamphlet and talk to them about that. So I’ve done it different ways. I’m not real consistent on … because there’s usually three treatments of Thermi-Va, and I’m not real consistent when I do the O-Shot with it. It can be the third treatment.

Charles Runels: I recently talked to Dr. Alinsod about this too [he does something very similar] and I know, Dr. Posey, you’ve done a lot of these. How long have you been doing O-Shots now, three years?

Kathleen Posey: Four.

Charles Runels: Four, yeah, so you’ve had … and I think probably more than anybody on the planet, your experience with lichen sclerosus combined with PRP is you’ve probably seen more patients than anyone. I don’t say this is for gospel because no one’s done the research, but when I speak to other providers, including Dr. Alinsod, they will sometimes do Thermi-Va, then another Thermi-Va, and then the last one of Thermi-Va, they’ll do Thermi-Va followed by O-Shot, or they’ll do ThermiVa and O-Shot on the first one, and then another Thermi-Va, and then, if they’re doing well, on the last one they just do a Thermi-Va. If they’re not as where they want to be, they’ll add an O-Shot to that last Thermi-Va treatment.

As far as the business part of this goes, a lot of our providers, when they come in, they’ll offer the O-Shot at the regular price, and then if they want to add in the Thermi-Va, they’ll cut the price of the Thermi-Va treatments in half, and sell it all as a package. Anyway, that’s become extremely exciting what people are seeing combining those two.

The general principle though that you never break, I think, is that you don’t do a heat, energy type treatment immediately after the O-Shot or the heat denatures those amino acids, small peptide, chemotactic factors, so you can do them both in the same day, but if you do both, you always just do the O-Shot after the heat therapy. I know you know that Dr. Posey but some of the new people may not.

Kathleen Posey: I have one thing. Can I add one thing

Charles Runels: Yeah, sure. Please do.

HUGE TIP (Small Vagina & Thermi-Va)…

Kathleen Posey: I just treated a patient this week that the Thermi-Va people sent me: Had seen a plastic surgeon in New Orleans, decreased lubrication after chemotherapy for colon cancer. She was in her 40s. No exam. So she gets here, and she’d gone from having intercourse three times a week to barely being even one. It was very, very painful.

Her vagina was so small, and they had done the Thermi-Va, so they were making it smaller, so all her symptoms got worse after the Thermi-Va. Actually, a lot of her pain was in the posterior fourchette. I just treated her this week, but I gave her another shot because I said, “Look, I’m going to see,” but you really have to select the patients and do the exams. If the three of us says, “Okay, I’m going to increase lubrication and decrease pain,” well, if the problem is your vagina’s too small, you’re going to make her worse.

She was worse, so the plastic surgeon complained to Thermi-Va. Thermi-Va says, “Well, where’s her exam?” They go, “Well, I didn’t do one.” They lived in New Orleans, so the plastics doctor called me and said, “Well, will you see her?”

You just really have to take each case individually because she was crippled because of a really small vagina. I don’t know if the O-Shot helped her. I did the traditional O-Shot, and I treated her with pain. I just wanted to throw out all these pain symptoms. I did another one today, which was episiotomy pain, and it’s helped her. She’s a year out and this is her second time. I do do the O-Shot, as well as treat where the pain is.

Charles Runels: Yes, all those are good tips, excellent tips, actually. I’ll just add to that that there probably should be, and maybe you can help us think about this, a … What’s the right word? Sort of a chart where you can picture down the one side is all the therapies, and then across the top are all the different problems, and you pick which do you do? Do you do radiofrequency or laser or PRP or dilators or hormones or whatever? And you can picture a pretty extensive chart.

I agree, not everybody … I don’t even use the word “tight” or “loose” vagina. To me, it’s all about matching your lover, and not everybody needs a smaller vagina, and when it comes to pain, for some reason our O-Shot just seems to be amazing, even when the etiology isn’t always known. But I want to emphasize what you said, if they can put their finger where it hurts, always put a cc of PRP there, and then do the regular O-Shot in addition to that. For example, your lady that had the episiotomy scar. My experience has been that, after an episiotomy, they’re usually good to go. So she lasted a year, and now it’s come back and hurting her again?

Kathleen Posey: Yes, it lasted a year. What she had was an episiotomy scar, and then some scarring around her posterior fourchette as well. It hadn’t come back as bad, but she just said, “I don’t want to have painful intercourse. It worked so well before, just repeat it.” I looked, it was a year ago. That was her second shot.

Charles Runels: Beautiful. That’s encouraging. So it wasn’t all the way like it was, but it wasn’t-

Kathleen Posey: No.

Charles Runels: … it had started to come back. There’s that negative feedback loop that can just make anybody avoid sex, especially, I think, women who have pain, and so breaking that feedback loop is so important. Just anecdotally, another patient I heard about from one of our providers, who’s-

Charles Runels: Just anecdotally, another patient I heard about from one of our providers who stays here with, usually with O-shots, she said she had a lady who had an episiotomy scar that had, not only hurt, but would bleed and tear ’cause the skin was so thin. The tissue was so thin, for years. And, no creams and all sorts of things had been tried with no result. And in this case, it took three injections 8 weeks apart, before the bleeding and the pain was gone. So, 8 weeks, pain’s a little better but not gone. Another one. So a series of three O-shots. So, I’m thinking in some cases the tissue may need more than one procedure.

And then lastly, I know we don’t have it here yet, but I know in Europe they have HA that’s made for the vagina. And then I’m wondering in those cases, it might be helpful to do both. So, like we do with our vampire user HA posteriorly with pure AP on top of it to help build that tissue posteriorly when we have an episiotomy scar. All thought they should not be used anteriorly unless it’s under an IRB protocol because of the risk of granulomas. Okay, let’s do the next question. Anything else you could add to that, Kathleen?

Kathleen Posey: No, that’s fine, thank you.

Charles Runels: Okay, let’s see. So, Cindy Crosby says, “My first question is piggy-backing of a question I read in the previous post. If there are there any post-op instruction pamphlets for vampire clients, please email. Second, I had an O-shot and the client had two large babies with two episiotomies. The anatomies very difficult to maneuver. The urethra’s approximately four centimeters long, it’s in the middle of what appeared to be a build-up of scar tissue. Has anyone experienced this and what was the solution?”

I’m gonna turn this one to you Dr. Posey.

Episiotomy Scars & Pain…

Kathleen Posey: Well, I agree, these can be tough. I would put a red rubber catheter in there and find out exactly where her urethra is. And therefore you would know where to put the PRP. Those are hard because, she probably had a cystocele and if you’re not used to looking at them, you’re not gonna know your anatomy because, it gets very distorted. That’s-

Charles Runels: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, I think you told me once about a lady who did not get benefit for incontinence and then you brought her back and put in a catheter and then things. Describe for them what you do.

Kathleen Posey: Right, I mean that lady had, I mean you don’t want to say a looser … We have a large vagina had cystocele rectocele I put it where I thought it should be the first time. And she just said it didn’t work and she got on the O-shot website, said my name … This is a long time ago.

Charles Runels: (laughs).

Kathleen Posey: Trust me, okay. She got on and said, “This is horrible.” And I think they gave her a discounted rate. So I brought her in, and I said, “Look, but it didn’t work, you’re going back on.” And she did.

Charles Runels: So you brought her back and repeated it, and she went, and she got better. And so, what you did was put in the catheter? Tell me exactly what you did.

Kathleen Posey: Yeah, I took a small red rubber catheter, you put the other end up on the abdomen, so you don’t get pee everywhere, and then you see exactly how distorted that urethra is, because the urethra is distorted in that patient. And it takes the vagina with it, okay. And so you have to see where to put it. And sometimes it can go off to the left or the right, it isn’t straight in the middle. And that was her problem, it had gone off to the side, and so I just put it in never never land.

Charles Runels: So, in the second procedure, your intention is to put the lumen of the needle in between where the catheter was and the outer service of the vaginal wall? Is that what you did?

Kathleen Posey: Yes, which was probably part of the cystocele and it’s gonna look like it’s scarring, it may not have a normal look by itself.

Charles Runels: Beautiful, very helpful.

Methotrexate…

Okay, let’s see. Dr. Tuttle, “Dear Dr. Runels I have a new person who wants an O-shot, so a daily load dose of methotrexate. Will O-shots still work? Will we get enough PRP, will it work in the presence of this suppressant drug?” She’s using the Emcyte machine.

Okay, so. The general rule I follow is: Would this person recover from surgery? Could you do surgery on them? And if the answer is yes, so can you do it with HIV? Yes. Could you do it with a profound thrombocytopenia? No, not a good idea. So, I don’t know … What’s your thoughts on this one, Kathleen?

Kathleen Posey: I don’t know, but the only P-shot that didn’t work at all was on an 82-year-old with a platelet count of 75,000, and I did two. But I don’t really, I don’t know. I would try it, it’s worth a try. I’d give them money back if it didn’t work.

Charles Runels: Yes, see that’s how I do it. And if you’re new to this, you’re listening to this talk, the first two months, I would just do the easy cases. And of course nothing’s 100% but you have a really high success rate. If not the first shot, the second shot, you’re gonna get it at least 80, 90% of your people well. If you’re treating incontinence with good pelvic floor integrity, dyspareunia, lichen sclerosis, those people are going to get better- people who can have an orgasm but it’s not as strong as it used to be.

If you’re treating someone who’s never had an orgasm in their life, that’s a hard case. Or something like this, where you’re not sure what’s going to happen. I agree, you’re not going to hurt her with this. She would heal, you could operate on her, but is it going to affect this procedure? I don’t know. So this would be a more uncertain case. I would be more hesitant to take these cases until I’ve been doing them. Otherwise, if you do something that’s hard and your first two don’t work, you lose confidence in what you’re doing.

But, on the other hand, I will often take someone who I don’t see any logical reason why I’m doing harm, and then I take them, exactly what you just heard Dr. Posey say, under the condition … I just tell them right off the bat that, “You know, I hope I can get you better. And I’m willing to try this. And if I don’t get you better, I won’t keep your money.” And worst case scenario, you lose a little money but you’ve learned, and you haven’t hurt them, and you’ve helped them find a solution, and you’re still profitable in the next procedure.

Let’s see, I think we just had a question typed in. Okay, yeah, so … Okay, here we go, thank you. So, Dr. Carp I’m gonna unmute your mic, Dr. Carp, so that you can talk with us. Hold on just a second.

Go for it, you there?

Dr. Carp: Yeah, can you hear me?

Charles Runels: Yes sir, perfectly.

Dr. Carp: Yeah, I do all kinds of surgeries on patients with methotrexate, you know, the significance. So I wouldn’t be concerned in the terms of a complication with injecting it. I don’t see how it should have any impact on the expected results with the PRP.

Charles Runels: Beautiful. Thank you for that. When you do your surgery, you don’t anticipate it affecting them healing. So I’m not doing operations every day, so I don’t know that. So, you wouldn’t expect it to have an effect on wound healing. So therefore, we’re both thinking that one variable should not change what the effect of the O-shot would be.

Anything else? Because I know you’ve been doing this awhile, too. Any comments on any of the other questions that we’ve fielded that you want to add to?

Dr. Carp: Not really. I think that, certainly as was pointed out, if they’ve had some uvula-related issues in the rectoceles, et cetera, it does make it more difficult anatomically.

Charles Runels: Mm-hmm (affirmative) yeah. I think it’s never an embarrassment to turf … I love that we have a gynecologists and a urologists as part of our group. And to those in our group who are not, if they see someone where the anatomy is not what you’re used to seeing, I would feel free to … You know, I’ve referred people to Dr. Posey, she’s about two and a half hours from me. And people that … For example, when the clitoris is phymosed down, that’s not something I should be tackling. And so, I send them her to a gynecologists.

And so I encourage those in our group to look at the others in the group that are close to you, so that we can work together.

Let’s see, there’s another. We’ve covered breast lift, the O-shot, there’s some questions that have accumulated about the priapus shot. Let’s go through some of these. Let’s see, okay.

“I was just wondering, can you freeze PRP and then thaw it later before activator procedure? We did a P-shot today, we used pure spin, which do about 20 CCs, and we used 10 of it, so we had some left over and didn’t want to throw it away.”

I know some of the ophthalmologists are putting in the fridge and using it for eyedrops for dry eyes, and using it for a couple weeks at a time. Maybe the answer to this is yes, but I wouldn’t want PRP that had been frozen … You know there’s enough profit built into our procedure that you could afford to spend a kit later. If you wanted, what I would say instead of this is that, there are those in our group that, when they use a priapus shot are using more material.

The only reason these volumes came about is back when I started doing these procedures, back in early 2010, so eight years ago, a one tube of Selphyl, which is what I was using at the time… so, my cost of goods was pretty high. So it was based on what I could find, the amount that could spread through a penis, and I found 10 was what it took to actually infiltrate the entire corpus cavernosoum of an average-sized man.

But others in our groups are using more, so I would say instead of wasting it, just double the volumes and use the whole 20 CCs if he’s average size or larger, and you should get a result. The only place I would say not do that, between the O-shot and the P-shot, is absolutely do not do that with the anterior vaginal wall because, I know of three cases now where our providers got a little overzealous and had an overflow obstruction. It went away and the person winded up doing well, and good results for their stress incontinence, but they went from stress incontinence to an overflow obstruction to wear a diaper for three or four days because of too much volume.

I think anything more than 4 or 5 CCs in the anterior vaginal wall is probably too much. But in the penis, go for it.

Anybody want to add something to that?

Lichen Sclerosus in the Penis…

Okay, so Dr. Leonardo says, “How do you treat lichen sclerosis on the glands? The video does not address this. Do you perform the same injections with the P-shot or would you micro-needle it?”

You know, Kathleen you’re treating a lot of lichen in the labia and around the clitoris, what’s your … This is just a larger clitoris, right? Or you could say clitoris is a smaller penis. What would you say? How would you answer this?

Kathleen Posey: I would inject it right in the areas of the lichen sclerosis, wherever they may be.

Charles Runels: Yep. I would too. I would feel … In a normal priapus shot, you would just kind of … I imagine the glands of the penis, literally like a sponge, and of course the underside of it that’s connected to it is the corpus spongiosum, so it does behave like a sponge.

But I agree with you, if there’s a sclerotic area that you can see or the patient can feel subjectively and put their finger on. I would go intradermally, as best you can, into the sclerotic area and treat it like you would sclerosis anywhere else.

I think, again, we just put out the first paper, I guess it was a couple years ago, and this last paper in the American Academy of Dermatology in January of this year. It’s not like we have some huge body of literature about the best way to do this. It’s part of the reason I like these calls because there’s smart people in this call, and you guys can help us figure out what the best way is. But that’s my best idea for now.

Anybody have anything else? Okay.

Penile Implants…

“I have a patient who has IPP. What is the injection recommendations, techniques, for lidocaine? PRP amounts of each … Locations along the shaft and the depth … In addition, has cold syndrome, for numerous reasons …” whatever.

Okay, so there’s a link here that takes you to a recording when it comes to the penile implants. That, when I interviewed Dr. Joe Banno, who’s one of the urologists in our group … And the biggest thing that I would say here is two things.

I would not use the vacuum pump, and I would not try to inject the shaft at all. And I would consider long and hard whether to even do it at all. Because if their implant fractures that night when they have sex, you could be blamed for it.

But if you do this, and Dr. Banno and I would do this, and most of our providers would do this … I would keep it just to the glands, and come in laterally like you do with the regular P-shot with just the bevel going into the carona of the glands. And just infiltrate the glands, and let that be it. Nothing else, or I think it’s too risky.

Anybody want to add anything to that?

Anyway, watch this video for more details. It’s only five minutes but you’ll get it straight from one of the urologists in our group who teaches. By the way, Dr. Banno teaches urologists how to do implants. It is his specialty. And he has told me that he started making the priapus shot as part of his pre-op before he does the implant because he’s getting more rapid healing and better results, as far as that sensation, and not having that cold feeling.

Any other questions? I think that might be the last one that was turned in. I know we’re only 38 minutes in, but I didn’t come here to try to teach anybody anything. I’m just trying to give us a forum. And our intention is to do this every week because the questions accumulate. And that way, someone other than myself can help think about them.

Anybody on the call have anything else to say or question to ask? Because now is the time and I’ll unmute you and we’ll have it out here for people to comment on.

And I’ll post this video, so who knows? Maybe some other people in our group … We’re pushing 2,000 members now in 40-something countries. We’ve got so many specialties and multiple medical schools, lot of smart people just like you guys are. So, maybe we can get other questions or other ideas.

But anybody have any other questions?

Okay, well I’m on stand-by and I hope this was helpful. And I’ll post the video, and we’ll try to do this every week. So if there’s something that comes in between, this will be the place to get it answered.

Honored to help out, and you guys have a good week. Bye-bye.

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